Pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver

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Re: Pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver

Postby Agito on Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:13 am

I am sure that, in some zen-like state of insanity, that really will be an intelligent conversation. :3

Hopefully, unlike they did in Yellow, it will be able to follow you around even after it has evolved (if not, I will be very annoyed, because earlier evolution could make things a lot easier at times).

For you "Ho-oh is stronger than Lugia" people, how about we take a look at a few things?

The developers have a lot of fun with developing Pokémon that merely have switched stats to make them different. A primary example of this is Skarmory and Mantine, where their physical and special stats were switched (Skarmory has Atk, Def, Sp Atk, and Sp Def of 80, 140, 40, 70 respectively, whereas Mantine has 40, 70, 80, 140, but since this is from memory, give or take a little on those). They also adjusted the evolutions of Eevee to fit this, with each one having a stat of 130, 110, 95, 65, and then two of 60.

Similarly, this happens with Ho-oh and Lugia. Both have the same amount of HP and the same Special Defense (106 and 154 respectively). However, the rest are from a set of 130, 110, and two of 90. For Ho-oh, the Attack gets the 130, the Special Attack gets the 110, and the Defense and Speed get 90. Lugia gets the 130 in its Defense, the 110 in Speed, and the 90 in Attack and Special Attack.

Thus, the simple difference is that Lugia is a defensively-based Pokémon whereas Ho-oh is more interested in attacking. However, Lugia is faster, and has a set of moves that allow it to do more damage to Ho-oh (in particular, Ancientpower gets 4x on Ho-oh whereas that cannot be matched on the Psychic/Flying typing, which also puts Ho-oh more at odds with Stone Edge and Stealth Rock floating around; Hydro Pump/Surf also hurts Ho-oh more than Fire Blast/Flamethrower hurts Lugia).

Ultimately the difference comes down to how they are used, and, as always, chance is a major factor. And, by the way, remember that you can still catch both in both versions, but Ho-oh will be later and at a higher level for Silver players (and vice versa for Gold).

Anyway, tangent aside....
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Re: Pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver

Postby Ridley Prime on Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:35 am

Agito - 07 Jun 2009 04:13 wrote:Hydro Pump/Surf also hurts Ho-oh more than Fire Blast/Flamethrower hurts Lugia).

Yeah, but with Ho-oh's high special defense and Lugia's low special attack, water attacks from Lugia don't mean much to Ho-oh, especially if it has Recover. Groudon learns Solarbeam, but that doesn't mean it would normally beat Kyogre with it because of its mediocre special attack.
Sacred Fire is better than both Flamethrower and Fire Blast anyway because of its 50% chance of causing a burn. It's a physical attack now too (not special), and since Ho-oh does better in the physical attack department, not good news for Lugia.
And while Lugia's Aeroblast may be special now and not physical, it still won't be super-effective against Ho-oh because of its type, so hah. :P

As for the rest of what you said though, point taken.

Agito - 07 Jun 2009 04:13 wrote:Thus, the simple difference is that Lugia is a defensively-based Pokémon whereas Ho-oh is more interested in attacking.

That's what I meant by stronger basically. The rainbow legend is stronger, whereas the beast of the sea is "tougher", if that makes sense.
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Re: Pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver

Postby Agito on Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:29 pm

wrote:Yeah, but with Ho-oh's high special defense and Lugia's low special attack, water attacks from Lugia don't mean much to Ho-oh, especially if it has Recover.

The point was that Hydro Pump is still super-effective against Ho-oh whereas Fire-type moves are not strong against Lugia, thus making that comparatively low Special Attack from Lugia still have double the weight. Ancientpower also gets 4x damage with the chance of raising all of Lugia's stats, which is a great multiplier even considering that monstrous Special Defense that they both face. Lugia also has a good Defense (as I noted, that gets the 130), so Ho-oh's physical attacks can only be so threatening, especially considering that both only have a so-so physical movepool in the first place.

Since both get Recover, that is not a particular reason to favor either. It is also worth noting that both can learn Calm Mind by level, and that is not a terrible route to take, either, because they both get a fair collection of special attacks. In fact, included in the movepool of both his also Thunderbolt and Thunder (though Lugia is gifted in that it gets Rain Dance by level, not that the TM for Rain Dance is difficult to acquire, but that also benefits its Surf/Hydro Pump while hindering Ho-oh's Fire-type moves).

I guess it still comes down to both are pretty darn gifted in their areas, not to mention that, since both are available to both versions, the argument is kinda null for which game you want. :\
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Re: Pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver

Postby Ridley Prime on Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:51 pm

Agito - 08 Jun 2009 17:29 wrote:Ancientpower also gets 4x damage with the chance of raising all of Lugia's stats, which is a great multiplier even considering that monstrous Special Defense that they both face.

Despite being a rock move though, Ancient Power is special now, not physical, so Ho-oh has a higher chance of surviving that from Lugia since the rainbow legend's special defense is considerably better than its regular defense, and Calm Mind lowers the threat of Lugia's Ancient Power even further. (Ho-oh gets Ancient Power itself too though, and Lugia gets Calm Mind as well, so I guess the point there is moot)

A pokeymanz's attack lowers some while being 'burned' too, which Sacred Fire has a 50/50 chance of causing. >.<

Agito - 08 Jun 2009 17:29 wrote:In fact, included in the movepool of both his also Thunderbolt and Thunder (though Lugia is gifted in that it gets Rain Dance by level, not that the TM for Rain Dance is difficult to acquire, but that also benefits its Surf/Hydro Pump while hindering Ho-oh's Fire-type moves).

Yeah, but then there's the fact the rainbow legend gets Sunny Day in contrast to that.

Agito - 08 Jun 2009 17:29 wrote:I guess it still comes down to both are pretty darn gifted in their areas, not to mention that, since both are available to both versions, the argument is kinda null for which game you want. :\

Agreed. ^ ^
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Re: Pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver

Postby Agito on Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:15 am

wrote:Despite being a rock move though, Ancient Power is special now, not physical, so Ho-oh has a higher chance of surviving that from Lugia since the rainbow legend's special defense is considerably better than its regular defense, and Calm Mind lowers the threat of Lugia's Ancient Power even further. (Ho-oh gets Ancient Power itself too though, and Lugia gets Calm Mind as well, so I guess the point there is moot)

Which still means that the 4x damage does not hurt, and especially if all the stats raise? My point is that since their Special Defense is equal and Ho-oh's more powerful attacks do not get super-effective damage as often, Lugia more likely has the advantage when it comes to attacking by type.

wrote:A pokeymanz's attack lowers some while being 'burned' too, which Sacred Fire has a 50/50 chance of causing. >.<

I thought we ruled out that possibility for Lugia, though, in the manner that neither is particularly gifted with their physical movepool (though Lugia can do Water/Ice as physical, Avalanche and Waterfall/Aqua Tail are not spectacular for that; Ho-oh's physical movepool is not especially great, either).

wrote:Yeah, but then there's the fact the rainbow legend gets Sunny Day in contrast to that.

Then again, it is unlikely that you will be putting either up in Uber unless you have it from Groudon or Kyogre. Maybe you will even have a Sandstorm raging instead. XP

Perhaps it says something that one can go back-and-forth on these constantly? I think they did a pretty good job of balancing them, because which one wins in a battle so heavily depends on which strategy they adopt, the other circumstances of the teams, and the skill of the trainers deploying them. Then, of course, we still have our factor of chance which can throw everything off further.

Anyway, I guess that has little enough to do with the games themselves. They may or may not even make both of them available like they did before (if they do not, go figure).

Has anybody seen the Pokéwalker thing, BTW? That could be a really neat feature, but mostly if it does come prepackaged as is expected.

Also, is it just me, or was that emote a terrible parallel for the thing I put there? O.o
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Re: Pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver

Postby Ridley Prime on Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:56 am

Agito - 09 Jun 2009 04:15 wrote:Anyway, I guess that has little enough to do with the games themselves. They may or may not even make both of them available like they did before (if they do not, go figure).

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised either.

Anyhow, Pokéwalker? No, I do not think so. Could someone post a link of it?

And nah. The emote was fine. xp
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